Say Yes to the Dress: Modest Wedding Gowns

Kleinfeld Bridal, a well-known premier bridal salon, has been offering up some of the most exquisite wedding gowns money can buy for more than six decades.  Their arguably addictive TV reality show Say Yes to the Dress reveals the sales process.  Kleinfeld even caters to those of us with a tighter budget, providing a vast selection of Sample Sale dresses at more affordable prices. However, for the Orthodox Jewish bride looking for an affordable modest wedding gown, there are several additional costs to keep in mind before flipping the non-refundable Kleinfeld bill. While I was blessed to find my dream Kleinfeld wedding gown, the sample sale price of $1,450 for the gown of my dreams turned into an additional $900 to build it up, along with the pains and frustrations when deciphering the “right” design decisions to make the build-up work well with the beauty of the original dress.


Don’t learn the hard way (like I did). Instead, protect yourself by knowing ahead of time what to expect with the Kleinfeld experience and additional costs:

• Kleinfeld Sample Sale wedding gowns are typically Strapless: This means you will most likely need a plan on how to make a strapless dress more modest (i.e., build-up, jacket, shawl, etc.)
• Speak to "Rochel Leah": Believe it or not, Kleinfeld actually has a sales associate that is known for consulting with Orthodox Jewish kallah’s looking for modest wedding gowns. While Kleinfeld salespeople are notorious for being pushy, Rochel Leah may actually talk you out of even scheduling a Sample Sale appointment at Kleinfeld’s if you tell her you have a tight budget. Why? She knows first-hand the mega dollars that can be associated with build-ups and botch-ups when making a wedding gown modest.
• Kleinfeld Sample Sale dresses are typically strapless which means you will most likely have to pay several hundred more dollars for the additional cost for the build-up, jacket, or other covering (typically starting at $400 +)
• Since Kleinfeld will not build-up your sample sale dress at their store, Rochel Leah can help identify which of the list of Kleinfeld’s recommended seamstresses are more / less expensive, but be weary of the quality and convenience before selecting a seamstress. Some NYC-based seamstresses are often pricier, while others make you hike your gown to other boroughs for the dress fittings and alterations.
• Rochel Leah became a great resource for consulting tips on building up the dress. Her advice was honest and helpful.
• Kleinfeld Sample Sale dresses are Non-Refundable: The purchase of your Kleinfeld sample sale dress is non-refundable and all sales are final, so before falling in love with a dress try to envision how the dress can be transformed to be more modest and determine such logistics as:
• Will the material be hard to get?
• Is the material going to be costly?
• Do I have enough allotted time to make alterations?
• What design looks best to flatter the original dress?
• Warning: Kleinfeld is not responsible for the work done by the recommended seamstresses. Since Kleinfeld does not do build-ups on Sample Sale dresses, what happens outside of Kleinfeld stays outside of Kleinfeld, regardless of how severely botched-up the dress may become. Rather, they provide you with a list of recommended seamstresses.
• After I purchased my Kleinfeld wedding gown, I had the misfortune of relying on the wrong seamstress to build-up my gown and I had to actually find another place for making alterations and the build-up. I ended up choosing Designer Loft, which saved the day for me and my perfect dress.

Questions?  Feel free to email me.

Metro-NY Kosher Catering Cost Estimates

Outsourcing a kosher caterer that can cater at practically any venue can be particularly liberating to those of you that want to throw a more unique kind of wedding.  Maybe you want to have your wedding at a posh NYC loft, at a venue that overlooks a waterfront, maybe you have always dreamed of throwing your wedding at a farm or in the park, or maybe the idea of having your wedding at a traditional-style Jewish wedding hall is not appeasing to you.   All of these thoughts crossed my mind when planning my wedding, which is why I have pricing estimates from some of the most popular kosher caterers of Metro-NY on catering at some of these sorts of venues.

Just remember, when looking for a top quality kosher caterer at an affordable, the most inexpensive route is to go to a venue that offers in-house kosher catering, as the total price per person includes the venue, service, and food.  Further, the effort and work involved in outsourcing a kosher catering is far more labor intensive since the food, equipment and service must be transported and all kosher cooking logistics considered, impacting costs.

So, how much does it cost to hire an outside kosher caterer for your wedding at any venue (i.e., a bare bones loft studio or a non-kosher restaurant with a spectacular view of the water)?  Not surprising, kosher caterers may be reluctant to provide cost estimates on catering an event without having a “meeting” to discuss all the specifics and logistics since the price range can vary based on factors such as:   

• the type of menu, 
• number of people, 
• venue, 
• staffing (rabbinical supervision and servers and / or bartenders), 
• time of year, 
• style of food, 
• sit-down versus buffet-style reception, 
• number of offered dishes (Meat, Chicken, Fish, Vegetarian), 
• sushi (typically adds to the cost), dessert plate options, and other bells and whistles, 
• whether they have a relationship with the venue, 
• whether they have to supply plates / flatware / stemware, etc.   

Further, some caterers will give deeper discounts the higher the number of guests that you can guarantee.  Caterers may differ on their flexibility with negotiating a lower price, and/or will provide tweaks to the menu to be able to lower costs.  

While I cannot provide price ranges that reflect your specific kosher catering needs, I can provide the cost estimates that I was given for my Feb’10 wedding of 200 guests.  Considering all of the aforementioned factors, my objective was to get the minimum cost to have an outside kosher caterer supply the food at venues such as the ones listed in the top ten affordable venues in Manhattan.

The following cost estimates are based solely on providing the kosher food for a wedding (schmorg, cocktail hour, Meat/Chicken/Fish/Veg reception, and dessert), and note additional costs such as the mashgiach, servers, bartenders, tables/linens, flatware/stemware, alcohol, etc are not included:

FLOP: Wedding Items Traditionally Paid for by the Chosson / Groom’s Side

Coming from a kallah that planned her wedding while watching the stocks plummet during to the 2009 recession, establishing a wedding budget and knowing who pays for what is key in turning your “dream” wedding into a financially realistic one. Of course, this may not apply to the younger chosson and kallah that have their parents working out the finances themselves (and all of the other wedding planning decisions for that matter). It also may not apply to those of you who are independently wealthy and / or have that “wealthy” Aunt willing to fork over the green. I am really speaking to the brides’ and their grooms that are making the wedding decisions with the assumption that both parents’ sides are contributing at least some amount of money to help pay for the wedding. In the Orthodox Jewish world, a tradition known as “FLOP” is (thankfully) one way of dictating how much the groom’ side should pay. The kallah’s side is traditionally responsible for paying for the hall and caterer. So, what is FLOP and how do these costs translate into what the groom’s side will typically pay in wedding costs?


What is FLOP?
FLOP is an acronym used for listing out the financial responsibility for wedding items to be paid for by the groom’s side of the family. The acronym sometimes varies in interpretation but typically stands for F: Flowers, L: Liquor, O: Orchestra, P: Photographer

• Variations to FLOP: The point of FLOP is to help determine the financial responsibility of the groom’s side. However, some of these terms can be loosely defined. For example:
• Liquor: Of the 70+ venues that I researched, Liquor is typically included in the price of the Wedding Hall and / or Caterer costs and is, therefore, not always separated out in the billing statement. To avoid any misunderstanding when writing the final check, we chose to exclude this item from the groom’s responsibility. The groom’s parents ended up giving us extra money for our savings, which was a very nice gesture.
• Orchestra: Orchestra can be loosely defined as any sort of costs associated with having Music at the wedding. It could be a Band, a DJ, a Pianist… you get the point.

Estimating how much the Groom’s Side should pay for the wedding
Prices for FLOP items can range tremendously based on quality, taste, style, size of the venue, etc. Further, there are ways to significantly reduce these costs (refer to my blog on reducing wedding costs). The following are cost estimates that are based on what was provided by the vendors that we contacted for an average size wedding (200ppl) in the Metro-NY area:

• Flowers: For the Orthodox Jewish Wedding, we found that the Florist was typically used for setting up the Chuppah. Including the costs of a chuppah, prices ranged from $3,500 - $6,800 depending on the vendor.
• Liquor: $7/pp (based on Caterer estimates when adding costs for liquor on top of the costs of food per person). This price can fluctuate based on whether you want Top Shelf alcohol, just wine and beer, etc. We had an in-house caterer and the liquor was included in the Per Person price of the venue.
• Orchestra: We used a live band. Live bands vary in cost based on factors including the number of band members, the number of hours they are expected to play, and reputation. Prices ranged from $4,000 - $5,000 for 4 to 6 hours.
• Photographer / Videographer: Prices for the photographer ranged from $3,000 to $7,000 based on the vendor and what was included in the package (i.e., photo albums, dvd’s, number of videos, etc).

Estimated Total Cost for Groom’s Side (using a size of 200 guests): roughly $16,000

Quick Tips on Cutting the Cost of Kosher Catering

These are some quick and easy tips that can save you money on kosher catering (here are more tips):

• Choose a lighter version of a shmorgishborg, or eliminate a shmorg altogether:
• Not surprising, Kosher caterers will offer their best (and most costly) food selections first. Do not be afraid to ask them to identify less costly shmorg food items.
• Select the less costly foods:
• Since the time period allotted during a shmorg can be quite fast before hustling guests into the ceremony area, choose a shmorg that is not “all out”:
• Negotiate on the number of trays and servers needed
• Dairy versus Meat meal:
• Choosing a Dairy meal over a Meat meal can reduce costs:  
• When I was negotiating costs with an in-house kosher caterer, he reduced the total per person amount by $10/pp if we chose to go with Dairy instead of Meat.
• Kosher caterers will state that the price of catering costs is dictated by the menu items, not by Dairy versus Meat food.
• For either Dairy or Meat, the biggest impact on kosher catering costs is the amount of labor and execution involved.  
• Choosing a lighter fare of menu items for either Dairy or Meat can reduce costs.
• Reception costs:
• Reduce the number of courses
• Do pairings on a plate instead of full plate
• Choose desserts that are less costly
• Have guests fill out which type of food they will want when they send in their reply to the wedding invitation: chicken, steak, vegetarian:
• Providing estimated numbers per type of dish ahead of time to the Kosher caterer will save money
• If there are a high percentage of your guests that are vegan / vegetarian, then construct a menu around their likings, which will significantly cut costs of Kosher catering
• Time of Day: Weddings that start earlier in the day can save you money
• The assortment of foods chosen for the shmorg and reception can be less costly for Day weddings as opposed to Evening weddings.
• Light shmorg for early wedding, with brunch type foods such as bagels, lox and cream cheese, pastries, etc.
• Alcohol can be limited or completely eliminated for Day weddings
• Reception meal can be lighter for Day weddings
• The Alcohol Factor:
• An open bar at a wedding with top shelf liquor, wine, and beer is only one of many ways to offer alcohol to your guests. It is also the most costly option. Here are less expensive options to cut costs:
• Only serve Wine and Beer, and not liquor
• Only have one Alcohol station
• Cap off the number of bottles of wine

Questions?  Feel free to Email me.

Top Ten Affordable Kosher Wedding Venues in Manhattan

Throwing a wedding in Manhattan can be costly, but there are some affordable places (especially when considering the added cost of kosher catering that comes on top of the cost of the venue).  I researched over 30 wedding venues in the Manhattan borough of New York City that allow kosher catering and were noted as being either reasonably priced or highly recommended to find the top ten most affordable kosher wedding venues.  Keep in mind some of these venues are also typically smaller spaces that may not be able to accommodate large parties.

Here are the top ten most affordable kosher wedding venues in the Manhattan borough (listed in alphabetical order):

• 3 West Club
• Broad Street Ballroom
• Columbia Faculty House
• Council on Foreign Relations - the Herald Pratt House
• Manhattan Penthouse
• Metropolitan Pavilion
• Park Avenue Synagogue
• Puck Building
• Studio 450
• The Prince George Ballroom

Pricing details:

If you are looking for more information, please feel free to Comment and I will email you with other details.  Finding the right venue at the right price can be torture, so please do not hesitate to ask for information.

The Perfect Modest Wedding Gown

When it comes to finding the perfect wedding gown at a reasonable price, the old saying "you'll know it when you see it" may not always apply to the Orthodox Jewish bride. Finding a modest wedding dress that covers the shoulders, arms and chest in the secular bridal world is extremely limiting and almost non-existent if you’re looking for couture, inexpensive, good quality modest dress. Most Kallah's resort to one of five options, each having their Pro's and Con's:

• Gemach / Borrow: Gemach’s can be a great option, as the price is significantly lower than the cost of buying a wedding gown. For instance, a quality wedding dress from a gemach can cost roughly $400 (when adding the cost of alterations and assuming that dry cleaning is not necessary).
• Pro’s: This is, by far, the cheapest route with the exception of someone offering their dress to you at no charge. Costs to consider are alterations and/or dry cleaning the dress. So looking at the wear and tear, along with the expense to custom tailor and dry clean will help in selecting a gemach wedding dress.
• Con’s: Not all gemach’s will offer the best or widest range of selections or quality, and most of what is offered cannot be viewed online first. Further, searching the gemach’s can be exhaustive.
• Resources: For those of you that are interested in Gemach’s in the metro-NY area, click on this link: http://www.chossonandkallah.com/new-york/jewish-wedding/Gemachs.html
• Rentals and / or Modest Bridal Stores that carries modest wedding gowns: Wedding gown stores in the heart of Brooklyn’s Orthodox Jewish communities will almost certainly offer a wide selection of modest wedding gowns and in-house alteration options. However, couture designer brands with fun and / or exotic looks are not as easy to spot in these stores. But sacrificing the designer name for an owner / designer of wedding gowns in Teaneck will offer up hotter styles that are within the realm of modesty.
• Pro's: Most of these stores offer long-sleeve and collarbone covered dresses galore. Unlike having to build-up a dress that is not modest, you already know how the sleeves look. Since there is no need for a build-up, the costs would only be for the dress and alterations. Further, the store may provide in-house alteration services (so there is no need to drag the gown to a tailor), and the fittings are minimal compared to building up a dress.
• Con's: Several modest bridal stores do not offer designer name gowns (outside of the Jewish world), the quality of material may be questionable, and the selection of styles may not include more exotic or fun looks.
• Resources: For this option, I highly recommend considering Couture de Bride by Tova Marc: http://www.tovamarc.com/
• Renting from Couture de Bride: Couture de Bride offers the option of renting a brand new wedding gown for $1,500. The price includes alterations, a petty coat and veil.
• Custom-made Couture de Bride gown: You can choose from a selection of looks and have Tova Marc make the gown from scratch for $2,000. If you’re worried about the quality of the material, don’t be since she lets you decide on the fabric.
• Clearance Couture de Bride gowns: The store offers sample sale dresses that are “once worn” and cost a mere $300. This does not include the cost for making alterations, and clearance gowns cannot be rented.
• "Build-up" the dress from an otherwise non-modest wedding gown:
• Pro's: You can feel free to shop at any secular bridal store and fall in love with almost any style, which includes designer wedding dresses at sample sale prices (the price for a couture secular dress plus the cost of a build up can be significantly lower than a couture modest dress without the build-up). NY Magazine has provided a Summer 2010 bridal gown directory of stores: http://nymag.com/weddings/listings/gowns/  
• Con's: The time spent on going to several fittings, and the money spent for the build-up can be excruciating. If you do not hire a seamstress or designer with experience in making build-ups then you are taking a huge risk. Even if you do hire the right seamstress, you must still know some of the terminology used in designing the build-up. Further, the final product of having a build-up added to the wedding gown may not provide the ultimate desired look, and the material used may be uncomfortable.
• Resources: For my wedding, I found the perfect Kleinfeld sample sale designer dress that needed a build-up, which deserves a separate blog (it is no wonder that Kleinfeld’s has a TV Show on buying a wedding gown with the kind of drama that can happen there). The biggest tip I can offer is to go to a highly recommended tailor that will provide solid guidance and experience to ensure the build-up looks natural, comfortable, and enhances the look of the original wedding gown. I recommend Designer Loft: http://www.designerloftnyc.com/  
• They are a bit pricey, but the seamstresses are supervised by a designer that offers quality advice on ensuring a successful build-up.
• Jackets, wraps, or other detachable covering:
• Pro's: This can be easy and cheap option depending on the style and material, and allows the freedom to find designer sample sale dresses from any secular bridal store.
• Con's: Having a separate piece as a covering can get in way of dancing or restrict movement. The look may be less put together or too matronly, and it may be hard to match the material / style of the dress or find the right tailor that is also affordable.
• Custom-made Wedding Gown:
• Pro's: If the designer is trusted, the price is right, the quality of the material is high, and the style/cut of the dress is known, then this is a great option.
• Con's: Unknown reputation of the designer, the dress material quality, or if the price changes due to unforeseen costs are all risks. Several fittings may be needed, eating up time that can be spent making other wedding-related plans. Further, the final product of the dress may not look as good on as imagined or the “wow” factor that every bride wants when trying on wedding gowns.
• Resources: As noted earlier, Couture de Bride by Tova Marc is worth considering.

Average Cost of a Kosher Wedding

One of the first tasks I did when planning my kosher wedding was to establish a realistic wedding budget.  Did I mention I planned my wedding during the 2009 Recession?  Cost was an issue, and in order to throw the wedding of my dreams I had to know what I was dealing with and how to cut costs.  While the internet unlocks the door to the world of wedding budget calculators, I did not find one specific to the Orthodox Jewish Wedding audience.  That being said, here is one way for you to establish your kosher wedding budget:

What is the average cost of a kosher wedding?
The average cost of a kosher wedding varies depending on location.  The following link provides a quick way to get estimates for a non-kosher wedding based on zip code:    http://www.costofwedding.com/
For New York City, the average cost of a (non-kosher) wedding is between $22,832 and $38,053.  But what does this mean to the kosher bride and groom, who typically invite significantly more guests than the number of guests invited to the average secular wedding, and who must pay almost twice as much for kosher food than the average cost of non-kosher food provided at a wedding?

It means that those wedding averages must increase significantly to get a realistic kosher wedding budget.  The easiest way to do this is to know which wedding items impact budget costs the most.  The wedding budget percentage breakdown shows that the Reception makes up 48% of the wedding budget, and "reception" is defined as the cost of the venue and catering.  So, a non-kosher wedding in New York that costs $25,000 means that half of that, or approximately $12,500 was spent on the Reception.  Kosher weddings require kosher food, which can cost double the amount paid for non-kosher catering.  So, for this example, a kosher wedding budget needs to add another $12,500 to the $25,000 making the cost of the kosher wedding $37,500 by factoring in the significant price difference in Reception costs.  There are additional Jewish related items in the budget that can also impact the average cost of a kosher wedding such as the average size of an “Orthodox Jewish” wedding. While the national average size of a wedding based on a survey conducted by The Knot in 2009 is 149 guests, the average size of an Orthodox Jewish wedding can be significantly larger. I did not find an available survey to reflect the average size of an Orthodox Jewish wedding, so for the purpose of this blog I will not factor average size differences between the national average and the Orthodox Jewish average.  Therefore, for those of you interested in what the average cost of a kosher wedding is, I took the non-kosher wedding cost averages and doubled the Reception cost to come up with:

• Average Cost of a Kosher Wedding in New York*:  between $33,791 and $56,318
• Average Cost of a Kosher Wedding in the US*:  between $21,735 and $36,224

* These averages do not factor in size of the average Orthodox Jewish Wedding, which can be significantly larger than the national average size of a wedding.